00:00:04

Natalie: Hey, everyone. Welcome to the podcast. Welcome, Katie. I’m so excited about talking with you today. You don’t know this, but when I wanted to do this mental health series, it was a year ago, I thought about it and then I went to try and go and do it and, you know, life happens. I had to push pause, but you were actually the first person on my list, like, you were already on my list to talk to. Because I remember when we did some work together and you shared your story, I was just like even more impressed with who you are as a person. But it also opened up a level of knowledge that I had no understanding about. So I’m really excited for you to share that today. So when you reached out and said, nat, can I be on the podcast? I’m like, girl, you’re already on it, so don’t worry. And I, I remember, you know, like when I think of you, I think of you always having a smile on your face, ready to embrace someone, and I feel like, you know, when I see you, there’s such a big hug and you’re very present when you’re with, with people, and I just love that about you. You’ve got this amazing embracing nature. So just wanted to welcome you on the podcast with that.

00:01:22

Katie: Thank you, Nat. And I’ve been listening to your podcast from, I think, pretty much the get go. And I’ve always wanted to be on it. So I think it was your kind of imperfect action that was like, I’ve got to reach out. As soon as you’re doing the mental health series. I was like, oh, I’ve got to email you straight away.

00:01:41

Natalie: Yeah. And I love, But I also love that. So you’ve got two businesses. You’ve got your copywriting business and you’ve got business in a bath, which is around you wanting to talk and help people with. Maybe not just bipolar, but, but bringing some new awareness to it. So I’d love for you just to jump straight in and go, why do you want to, I suppose, educate a lot of us about it and bring awareness to it and just, let’s just see where we go.

00:02:09

Katie: Okay, cool. Well, I’ll probably take us back to, I think it was 2009, 2010. I was in a workplace where it wasn’t good for my mental health and things were getting really quite gnarly. I was having panic attacks, depression, like really dark thoughts, and I didn’t know what was going on. And I kind of considered myself to be the problem. I didn’t, I didn’t have the. I guess maturity or knowledge to realize that maybe it’s not me that’s the problem. Maybe it’s the, the systems or the structures or the culture of a place that can make people sick or can at least make you feel worse about things. So when I was going through that, I didn’t really feel like I had anywhere to turn for information. I didn’t know exactly what was. What was going on. I didn’t really have a name for it. I was seeing doctors and psychiatrists at the time, but I was just going through so many kind of ups and downs, which I now know is depression and mania. So, yeah, I really just want to be able to contribute to a world where people are more informed, more compassionate and, and just generally kinder. So, yeah, that’s kind of my. My mission with business in the Bath is to, to share, to share those dark spaces, but not to leave people in that space to realize that there is kind of hope and that you can get through it and you can lead a happy, fulfilling life. But it might mean leaving that kind of hustle and grind behind.

00:03:59

Natalie: Yeah. And I think what you’re doing is really important on the sense of, you know, like in movies and books, people with mental health are portrayed to, I don’t know, look villainous or be, you know, these bad people. And I think educating around what some, the real, what real people look like with, with whatever is happening for them is really important.

00:04:24

Katie: Yeah.

00:04:25

Natalie: Because, you know, we are, we’re portrayed that they. People could look a certain way or act a certain way. Can you take us back to after you had your daughter? Because I think that part of your story is really important for people to hear and then how it kind of has come, how you then got your diagnosis.

00:04:44

Katie: Yeah. So my daughter just turned nine and it was that postpartum period really, that things came to a head again. I just before that I’d. I’d gone through a long period of feeling really well and not even being on medication. So I kind of thought, okay, that’s behind me. Maybe it was just the, the situation and the stress of that workplace. So actually it was in the first trimester that I was starting to feel unwell again. I was quite depressed during the first trimester. And then when my daughter was born, I. I actually, I didn’t feel depression. I actually felt really kind of alive. I did feel a bit of anxiety, but I was starting to do weird things. Like I’d be awake at 3 o’ clock in the morning because I just been feeding my baby. But then Instead of going back to bed, I’d be like, oh, I can clean the whole house. And when I’d wake up in the morning at six, I’d bound out of bed and like cook a full English breakfast. And those things, you know, in and of themselves are not weird, but they were strange for me. So I was starting to have. I had a lot of energy. I didn’t feel like I needed to sleep as much. And I started to believe that I was psychic. Like we had the chase on at the background. I had the answers and then I said the answers, but I thought that, that I knew the answers all already. But yeah, right, does that make sense? Like I felt like I had these kind of special powers, but it started to get really bad when I went down to Wellington. I took my daughter when she was only maybe a couple of months, and it was just me and her. We went down to see my in laws and I was just so unwell that I was awake for about 55 hours and I was having just really strange thoughts, just bracing thoughts. And that, that kind of set the ball rolling for when I got home, I was continuing to feel strange. The crisis team was called. I was put under the care of maternal mental health. I stayed in respite, respite facility for 10 days, which is like a house in the community where people, there’s occupational therapists and mental health specialists and they help you try and sleep and they feed you and they generally just look after you. And that was great, but it wasn’t enough. And so unfortunately I was actually committed under the mental health act to go to hospital. So I was hospitalized and I can’t remember the exact timing of when I got the diagnosis, but it was in those strange few months after my daughter was born that I got the diagnosis of bipolar type one. Yeah. So there’s a lot of info there.

00:08:17

Natalie: No, but. Because I’ve heard your story before, but even just hearing it second time around, I’m like, wow. Like, wow. But it’s just, again, it’s a reason why we’re doing this talk, Katie, is, you know, hearing what you’re, what you’re saying. Like you said, we can think that bipolar or these mental health disorders. Is that the right name? I always don’t, I don’t want to make. Be offensive with saying the wrong thing.

00:08:44

Katie: Technically disorder is correct, but I don’t use the word disorder because I don’t like it.

00:08:49

Natalie: No, I don’t like it. Yeah. What’s a better one that I.

00:08:50

Katie: Can I just say bipolar.

00:08:52

Natalie: Yeah.

00:08:52

Katie: Okay.

00:08:53

Natalie: So someone who might go. They might think that we have to be doing wildly crazy things to have bipolar. But when I first heard your story and hearing it again now, I’m like, yeah, know what? There could be a lot of people who are like, oh, I. I actually. Oh, I didn’t realize that this was what it. What it is. So I’m not trying to. I’m not articulating that well. But I suppose I liken it to how. How sick do you have to be to call the ambulance? Do you know what I mean? Like, is this the emergency time? Is this the. Is this. How bad do. How bad do I have to get? So I think it’s really important that we’re talking about this.

00:09:29

Katie: Yeah. And I did do crazy things. Um, okay. Especially the. The first time around when I was a lot younger. And, yeah, I. My driving was. I had moments of really unsafe driving and getting myself into quite unsafe situations. But, yeah, it wasn’t. I didn’t see that as unwellness.

00:09:55

Natalie: Yeah. Yeah.

00:09:56

Katie: And I think to, like, answer that question about when do you call the ambulance or when do you call the crisis team? And I think it’s. You have to rely on people close to you to know when you’re outside of your normal. Because you’re unlikely to know yourself. Especially if you’re manic. You’re unlikely to know yourself.

00:10:24

Natalie: Yeah.

00:10:26

Katie: Yeah. I was reading a post the other day in a bipolar group, and one of them suggested, don’t, don’t call the ambulance if somebody’s going through a manic episode because it might re. Traumatize them going back to hospital. And I’m not sure if I agree with that, but what I do agree with is that committing somebody to hospital under the Mental Health act can be a traumatizing experience. Um, because when I was committed, they. They took me away in a car. I left my husband and my baby behind. We didn’t know where we were going, we didn’t know for how long. And that was quite distressing because I was still trying to breastfeed her.

00:11:11

Natalie: Yeah.

00:11:12

Katie: Of course, during that time. But I was separated from her. And, Yeah, I didn’t know what. What that ward would be like or.

00:11:21

Natalie: Yeah, there’s a lot of unknowns. Right. There’s no, like, this is what we’re going to do. This is where you’re going.

00:11:25

Katie: Yeah.

00:11:26

Natalie: You’re going to be able to see your baby or see your husband. Yeah. Do you think, is it changed now in the system for you, thinking about how long ago that is now? If it’s still the same like that, do you think they’ve maybe taken some of that feedback on board from people?

00:11:41

Katie: I’m not sure. But yeah, it has been nine years and a lot of people with lived experience are really advocating for changes in the system to make it more humane and to make it more compassionate. But yeah, it’s, it’s a very, it’s a political thing as well. Right. Like, it’s what the, the government care about. And yeah, there’ve been changes to the call outs and like who, who can come when you’re in distress. And yeah, it’s quite complicated. But yeah, I, I hope that there has been some changes, but it’s very slow.

00:12:23

Natalie: You talked before about bipolar type 1. Can you explain that? And perhaps like how many types are there?

00:12:33

Katie: So I know that there are at least three. So bipolar type one, to kind of qualify for that, you have to have had a manic episode and usually you’re hospitalized or not usually, but it might lead to hospitalization. That’s how severe it can get. With bipolar 2, you’re more likely to experience longer periods of depression and you will experience hypomania, which is like a kind of less like severe type of mania in that you might still be able to function and you might just be seen as somebody who’s got lots of energy and drive. But it’s not, it can still like really impact people’s lives. Like.

00:13:28

Natalie: Yeah, I think that’s the important point. Right. Is you sharing that story is. That’s what I was trying to say before is how do you know when you know? Because sometimes we could all be sitting here going, oh, sometimes I can be like that. Like really energy, then really maybe not. And you’re like, oh, when, when is it when you should go talk to someone? And I think like you said, it’s about when it then impacts your daylight. Or someone externally is like, hey, what are you doing?

00:13:51

Katie: Yeah, yeah. For example, like the things that people from the outside might say is that they might see that person spending a whole lot of money that they don’t have or they might see them engaging in, in kind of risky sexual things or.

00:14:09

Natalie: Yeah.

00:14:09

Katie: Or just putting themselves in a position where they might be vulnerable or. Whereas we kind of know a bit more about depression. Right. We know what that looks like. We know what that kind of sadness looks like. But mania is still kind of more misunderstood, I’d say.

00:14:32

Natalie: Okay.

00:14:33

Katie: Yeah. And the third one is, is rapid cycling. So you kind of go in between depression and mania quite quickly. So sometimes in the course of days or even hours, you can kind of cycle between the two, which you can imagine can be really.

00:14:52

Natalie: Yeah.

00:14:52

Katie: Hard work as well. And I think sometimes I think they said that that can last, you know, a couple of years.

00:14:59

Natalie: Goodness.

00:15:00

Katie: Yeah. So I think it’s the kind of length of time that you’re in a state and also how much it’s impacting your life, if it’s impacting your relationships or if it’s impacting your ability to show up at work. And. And if you’re starting to have, like, those dark thoughts of. Of wanting to end it all, like. Yeah, but you can still. With mania, you can still have really dark thoughts as well. So. Yeah, there’s kind of crossovers between the two and. Yeah.

00:15:39

Natalie: How. So how. So what kind of. How do you manage it now? So coming out of hospital and coming back into married life and your baby, like, what was that transition like? And then how do you manage it now?

00:15:53

Katie: Yeah, so that first year of my daughter’s life was really hard. Because it’s so tough, Katie.

00:16:02

Natalie: Because it’s hard anyway without, like, you got like double quadruple hard, like, let’s be honest.

00:16:13

Katie: So fortunately, I stayed under the care of maternal mental health, and I was assigned a peer support worker, which is somebody who’s also had lived experience of mental distress.

00:16:28

Natalie: Oh, that’s cool. Okay.

00:16:29

Katie: Yeah. So they’ve been through a similar journey to you. So I met mine in the hospital, actually. So I connected with her when I was in the hospital, and she kind of walked alongside me for a good two or three years, and she helped me set goals, and she helped me see myself beyond my diagnosis, and she helped me see my strengths. And we would just meet up for coffee and go for a walk. So it was really kind of casual but really meaningful as well.

00:17:00

Natalie: Yeah, I can feel that when you’re talking about it. I started smiling. I was like, oh, I can feel she really, really cared for you.

00:17:07

Katie: Yeah, so she was wonderful. And under maternal mental health, we had group therapy sessions. So mums that were in a similar kind of boat, we. We met together and we brought our babies and they were looked after. And they kind of taught us different techniques to kind of manage our distress and kind of feel regulated again. And one of the techniques that they taught us was sensory modulation. So that’s just a fancy way of using your senses to kind of bring you back into your body. So if you’re feeling like a panic attack coming on or if you’re feeling anxious or kind of like distressed you can use your senses to kind of calm yourself back down and you can also use it if you’re like feeling really tired and lethargic to kind of amp yourself back up again.

00:18:03

Natalie: Oh, that’s cool.

00:18:04

Katie: Yeah. So things like holding onto a piece of ice or eating a raisin really slowly or lighting a candle, all those things that we kind of do intuitively, they’re really helping you kind of bring yourself back into your body and back into the moment.

00:18:22

Natalie: And so I think we all need that. Do you know, like, I’m like, oh, actually we could all do a dose of like, let’s just slow some shit down.

00:18:28

Katie: Yes. Yeah. And I think honestly being able to work for myself has been such a key part of my recovery.

00:18:37

Natalie: Yeah, tell us about that. That was perfect segue. I wanted to be like, hey, how does this transition to you being in business? And tell us about that because I think that’s such a superpower. Again, it’s hard being in business, let alone maybe being in business where your brain might sometimes be like, we’re not doing that today.

00:18:57

Katie: Yeah, I think it’s about, yeah. Having that grace and being like, there is a reason why I’m in business and the reason why I’m in business for myself is so that I can ultimately call the shots. You know, you can’t call the shots all the time, but I, I can more easily have a mental health day or mental health week than if I was employed. I don’t have to justify taking the afternoon off to have a bath or go for a walk or. So I think with, with me and working, I’ve, I’ve got a bit of a mantra and it’s, I’m at peace with my pace.

00:19:39

Natalie: I love that.

00:19:41

Katie: And so when I feel like things started to feel urgent or like just becomes hassle or I can remind myself I’m at peace with my pace. Like, I don’t, I don’t necessarily want to be the, the biggest or the best, but I do, I want to, I want to give my best and I, I don’t want to keep on growing and growing and growing if that means my mental health suffers. So I feel like being in business by myself, I can kind of control that, that pace a bit more and go where the energy.

00:20:24

Natalie: It’s actually amazing that you can do that because a lot of people will go and burn themselves up and give them mental health, self mental health issues because they’ve over doing it in business. So I feel like we could all take that lesson from you that actually just Go at your own pace. Be kind to yourself. Give yourself some grace.

00:20:45

Katie: Yeah.

00:20:46

Natalie: How long had you. How long have you had your copywriting business?

00:20:51

Katie: I started writing freelance when Zoe was quite little. Yeah, she was only maybe a few months when I started to. Started to write. I, I started off kind of just writing for one person. He brought me alongside his brand and, and that was really good. I was kind of slowly building that up while so I was at preschool and it was 2019 that I had my own website. So yeah, I’ve been writing for the. For nine years, but I’d say that the business properly started in 2019.

00:21:35

Natalie: Yeah, I love that. And then let’s talk about the, I suppose the birth of business in a Bath, which I just, I love how that came about for you, so I’d love for you to share that.

00:21:46

Katie: Yeah, well, Business in the Bath started as Compassion poetry back in 2020. And compassion poetry was a home for my poems and essays about bipolar and about being a mom. And it was like a really beautiful creative space for me. But then I started to realize how much my story might help other people. So I was going into organizations and talking to them about bipolar or being on podcasts like this. But I think it was through working with you actually that you gave me the clarity that it really needed its own home. Business in the Bath really needed its own space. And so I kind of reverted Compassion Poetry back to its original kind of purpose for that creative space for my poems and my essays. And then Business in the Bath was this space where like I’ve literally done business in the bath. Not video calls or anything like that. But.

00:23:00

Natalie: Yeah, so explain how that got its name because I was like, oh man, this is such a cool concept. Explain the name because I think it’s fun.

00:23:08

Katie: Yeah, so I really love a bath. I’m. I’m British and a lot of good memories of like, you know, long baths on a Sunday, you know, where you’re in there for three hours and you just keep on topping up the water and. And there was a buff when I was at the respite care and there was a bath in hospital. And when I was down in Wellington, you know, my mother in law ran me a bath to help me calm down as well. So it’s always been a kind of safe space for me. And so I kind of the bigger imagery of it always that you’re allowed to feel safe and gentle in business. You don’t have to be this hard, you know, masculine kind of professional, like stiff. And I just associate. Yeah. I just associate buffs with safety and rest and peace and comfort. And being able to bring all of those things into my working life has been such a massive thing for me.

00:24:24

Natalie: And I think you’re so right. It’s about showing another way of doing business. Like, you can literally do business in a bath. Like, I know you’d always be like. You’d be like, nat, when I was in the bath, I had this idea and I’m like, man, this bath thing is so good for you. Like, get in the bath. And I think you’re right. So online we can be following those highlight reels of how we think we. We have to do it because someone’s telling us, because they’re just trying to make money from the way they’re telling you how to do it. And we can lose ourselves and all of that and forget how we show up and our interpretation of business or, you know, a piece of work. So I, I love for you, business in a bath. I’ve had some really good feedback about employers listening to this podcast and listening because they know that some of their staff struggle. They can see them struggling. And so they’re listening to this, which I think is really cool. And part of why I wanted you on to be like, what can we tell people with, with teams and staff members who. They can see people struggling or they feel, maybe feel like the company or business is. Isn’t doing what it can. So I’d love for you to speak into that space.

00:25:33

Katie: Yeah, I think being really flexible with people really helps and focusing on the outcome of the work rather than, you know, how did the person get to that point?

00:25:51

Natalie: Yeah, right.

00:25:52

Katie: Not forcing people to be in the office and not forcing people into that nine to five mode. But if they notice that somebody is in. In distress or kind of behaving differently than normal, or maybe it’s having more sick days or maybe they’re not. The quality of their work isn’t up to their usual standard. I think it just takes a lot of kind of curiosity and compassion and reaching out to them and not making it a scary, like, performance thing. Not making it. It’s not a punishment. They’re not, they’re not misbehaving, but, you know, bringing them gently aside and, and maybe taking them out for coffee and, and saying, hey, I’ve. I’ve noticed that you’re not, you’re not quite yourself. Is there anything going on? Is there anything I can do to, to support you? And reinforcing that? They’re not, they’re not in trouble. They’re not, they’re not going to be performance managed or you know, they’re going to be supported. And if the employee sees their employer show that level of care, the, the loyalty that you’re going to feel to your work is going to be immense because you’re like, my boss has, has seen me as a whole human and they want, they want to support me. And there’s people with bipolar or other forms of neurodivergence have got a lot to offer, but you just have to kind of create that right culture and atmosphere so that we can thrive.

00:27:40

Natalie: I think it helps though, like if someone knows they have some neurodiversity or bipolar, then they know how to manage and show up for work or how they best perform. I think sometimes the challenge is when someone doesn’t know that they have these things going on that an employer can be like, listen, you know, they could be that compassionate. So hopefully what that does mean for is that employee feels really looked after but also can help with maybe like, hey, I do need to take some time off or hey, actually I don’t think I can to do this job because I think that’s where the issues can be is where the, an employee is stuck because this person isn’t actually performing and it’s at the detriment to the business being able to make money to pay them their wage. So I think there’s always that fine line pay.

00:28:38

Katie: Yes. And, and being able to have that kind of ongoing conversation like how do you best work? Or how do you like to receive feedback? Or yeah, you know, asking those questions for all of your staff because this stuff applies to everybody, right?

00:28:56

Natalie: Yeah, totally.

00:28:57

Katie: What do you need to be able to do your best work and how can we make that happen?

00:29:02

Natalie: Sorry to have interrupts you. I don’t, didn’t want to be that person I, a part of.

00:29:05

Katie: I just was.

00:29:08

Natalie: Just going back into if an employer sees someone in distress. Like similar for me when I’m coaching someone, I’ve sent many a client to therapy and gone, hey, we need to stop business coaching you. Actually there is some distress. There’s some reasons why some things aren’t moving or clicking or I’m worried about you. And I think as a coach really knowing that line of hey, I’m not psychologist, I’m not a therapist. Sure, I can use some life coaching things. But actually we’re going and we’re going to a line where I’m like, hey, I’m. I don’t want to. You need to go and get Some better support or some more help. And I think that an employers can be in that position too because if I see it in my coaching world I’m like, oh, imagine for them. I’m just wondering for you like if someone hasn’t had the help yet but an employer can see their struggle, what’s a way in which they could I suppose gently suggest, hey, I think you need some more support or go to your family doctor. What do you think they could do?

00:30:13

Katie: Yeah, I definitely think that you need to know where the line is, the professional line, so that you’re not, I mean you don’t want to be diagnosing people or saying this is what you need to do to get better. But yeah, pointing them to different supports. And have you come across mental health first aid?

00:30:36

Natalie: No.

00:30:37

Katie: So I went on a course this year in April and it talks all about what to do if you notice somebody is in mental distress.

00:30:49

Natalie: And we’ll put a link to the show notes for that because that sounds really important.

00:30:54

Katie: So there’s a little acronym to remember and one’s, it’s algae. A L G E E. So the A is approach, assist and kind of ask how that person is doing. L is listen non judgmentally. G is oh and but then E is about encouraging them to go and yeah, okay, seek out support. So you kind of take them through that, that process and so you’re not, you’re not giving them specific advice but you’re pointing them in the right direction. So yeah, normally the first port of call is as your GP who will then hopefully refer you onto a specialist. And I think it’s really important with a therapy piece that people know that there are different types of therapy and there are different types of therapists. So shop around if the first therapist you don’t kind of have any rapport with or you don’t like the kind of methods that they used and go find someone else. Because there are so many different types of therapy about. And it’s just about finding the right type of modality and therapist that, that you trust and that it resonates with you. Like for example, I’ve, I’ve never really got much from cbt, the cognitive behavioral therapy. Yeah, I see somebody who’s trained in psychodrama, which means that we kind of, we kind of role play different situations. Like one of the things that I struggle with is, is conflict and interpersonal conflict. So we kind of role play difficult conversations. Or she’ll put me in another spot and say, okay, you, you’re now this person or you’re now 15 year old, Katie, what do you need to say? And I find that really helpful. So there are different types of therapy out there and don’t give up if the first one doesn’t click.

00:33:13

Natalie: Yeah, I love that advice. I think it’s, it’s true you’ve got to go find what works for you. And sometimes, you know, CBT might be right at the beginning, but then you might need to go and do, you know, different for different types. And I think there is actually, once you start googling and looking around, knowing that you want to find someone that there is. So there’s actually a lot to choose from and asking for referrals or a recommendation from a friend or a colleague is really important. And that’s another reason wanted to do this mental health piece is if we’re talking about it more, then more people will be like, ah, you know, you know, I, I, you know, heard you were struggling. Who did you, you know, when you got help, who did you use? So there’s more, more people, more of us referring people I think is really helpful.

00:33:59

Katie: I think it’s really helpful having a buffer after therapy as well. So if you’re going to, if you’re employed and you go to see a therapist during the, during the day, during a work day, having a little bit of a buffer before you’re expected to go back to work or, or having it at the end of the day because obviously you’re going to be talking about quite vulnerable stuff and you’re going to feel a bit kind of exposed or a bit raw. So having that grace or that buffer that you don’t have to kind of go straight back into work.

00:34:34

Natalie: Yes. I love that we’re going to start to wrap up my lovely. Because we could, we could like talk for, for days, which is amazing. Is there something that you would like to share, particularly with someone in business who’s running their own business, who might be struggling some because you’ve got that beautiful energy of hope. Like I feel, always feel hopeful when I’m around you, like these light and there’s good things. So is there anything you’d want to say to someone who’s listening to this, who’s in business, who just needs a little bit of, I suppose, a hope, some hope given?

00:35:09

Katie: Yeah. When I was really unwell, I had this kind of line come into my head and it was something beautiful will come from this. So if you’re in that struggle right now, it will pass and you will be a more compassionate, empathetic person. Because of it. So please don’t give up. You are loved and you’re meant to be here and you can build a business in so many different ways. So don’t feel like you have to follow a structure or a system that is not good for your brain. Find. Find what works and. And rest when you need to. And yeah, just be true to who you are and don’t try and don’t put yourself down if you’re going through distress. Yeah, I love that.

00:36:08

Natalie: And even come and talk to you business in a bath. You know, I know you can help a lot of it. I know that you can help a lot of people in business who potentially need some other ways to think about how they can show up for themselves. And I think you do it so well and the fact that you’re still in business and you’re still cranking along with all the challenges that you face, but on top of COVID recession, all the stuff that we’ve all had to deal with in these, it feels like a really long, long five or six years. You know, just kudos to you, Katie, because you just. You keep on being there and you keep on showing up. And I. Yeah, I think it’s amazing.

00:36:50

Katie: Thank you. And I’ve got a. A wee pocketbook that’s coming out in the next month or so. It’s just with the designer at the moment. And tell us about it. It’s called 30 Things I’d like you to know about bipolar. So in March, I did a challenge where I posted something about bipolar every day for 30 days. And so. Yes, that’s great. Yeah, I’ve put all those things together into a pocketbook. And so I think it’d be a really nice thing to have if you are going through bipolar or you’re. You love somebody who’s got bipolar, or you’re looking after someone or leading someone who’s got bipolar. So, yeah, that. I hope it’s just a really cool resource.

00:37:36

Natalie: Would you like to share a couple of them with us now? And then I’ll make sure I put the link in the show notes.

00:37:42

Katie: Share a section of the book.

00:37:43

Natalie: Yeah, sure. You know how you got 30? Maybe pick up two and share them with us if you’d like.

00:38:06

Natalie: That’s a genius way for you to have repurposed as well. So it’s a good teaching moment. Hey, you did it for socials and then repurposed it. It’s a really smart thing to do.

00:38:37

Natalie: Yeah, do it.

00:38:47

 I just think that also, you know, for you, if we think about these kind of three businesses you have with compassionate poetry as well, that it’s also okay to have other creative out outlets.

00:39:03

Katie: Yeah.

00:39:04

Natalie: So you know, if you’re someone who, who is quite creative and you like to do different things, you know, it is quite common for a lot of business people to have more than one. One thing happening or different outlets. So go you for being able to do all three of those things.

00:39:21

Katie: I. I call them side quests.

00:39:24

Natalie: Oh yeah. Nice.

00:39:36

Natalie: Okay, we’re ready with learning about some labels.

00:39:40

Katie: I’m closing this pocketbook with a chat about labels. Labels can put you in a box if you let them. Labels can stop you from pursuing opportunities. Without visibility and without talking about labels, you can face more self stigma and stigma from others. But labels allow you to make sense of your experience too. Labels allow you to show compassion for some of the behaviors and thoughts you struggle with. Labels open up access to new understanding communities like the service user community, the neurodiverse community, and the mad pride community. Labels help you access the right support and regain a sense of control and agency. Labels allow you to take your experience seriously. There’s a reason why you’re behaving, feeling, thinking and sensing the world this way. It’s not your fault, neither should you be ashamed of it. I was diagnosed with bipolar in 2016. It took me a while to get my head around this, this word, this new label, this new lifelong label. For a while, I completely identified with the label. There was no distinction. It was me, myself and bipolar. But things have changed during my recovery. One of the most important things for me is to accept that label, make it work for me, and even learn to thrive with that label. And one of the biggest, biggest things in my recovery has been to seek out other voices, other people living with bipolar, reading and listening and absorbing the different insights on how to live a rich and fulfilling life with bipolar. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. We must never underestimate the power of stories.

00:41:20

Natalie: What a way to finish the podcast. It was amazing. That was beautiful. You’ve got such a great way with words. And I, yeah, I totally agree with what you wrote about labels, the upside, the downside to them. And just your story you put in there, it’s beautiful. Thank you so much, Katie.